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Re: Reply to Tim Mahoney
>>>>>>>>>>
POINT OF CLARIFICATION--TEAMS DO NOT PICK JUDGES BECAUSE THEY THINK THE
JUDGES ARE "FAIR."
>>>>>>>>>>
Wrong. When we pick a judge it is based on their ability to be fair. Since we
rarely walk into a round (at a tournament such as CEDA Nats) as the favored
team, we are just hoping to get a fair chance at the ballot. This, is our
reason for selection.
>>>>>>>>>>
*BIG* SCHOOLS WON'T USE THEIR PREFERENCES AS STRIKE SHEETS--DUH...[SORRY,
HAVEN'T USED THAT WORD IN A LONG TIME...:-)] *SMALL* SCHOOLS CAN PICK JUDGES
>THAT *BIG* SCHOOLS WOULDN'T TOUCH [LET'S JUST USE ME AS AN EXAMPLE :-)] A
*SMALL* SCHOOL SHOULD HAVE EVERY INCENTIVE TO PICK ME AND 19 ROCKS SO THAT IF
THEY HIT A NATIONAL CIRCUIT TEAM THAT THEY DON'T GET A NATIONAL CIRCUIT
JUDGE, WHO IS FAIR, BUT WHO HAS ALREADY JUDGED THE NATIONAL CIRCUIT TEAM 15
TIMES.
>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, right. I'm gonna take the chance that NOBODY else chose a rock as their
preferred choice, cause if they did, we could end up getting that judge. Why
would I do that??? We will pick ALL the judges (at least the X, but more if
we think the judges warrant our nod) that we think would make a fair decision
TIM MAHONEY SAYS:
>>>>>>>>>>
Even if they don't ever travel out of the region they probably attend
tournaments where schools from out of the region show up. I think the small
schools have a better idea about judges than they are given credit for.
>>>>>>>>>>
I agree. As one of the schools in question, I also do not think that Tony is
giving credit where credit is due. I think that i am capable of decidng which
judgs can render fair ballot and which ones should be rellocated to the "no
thanks" pile.
TONY HUNTER RESPONDS:
>>>>>>>>>>
>RIGHT...I THINK *SMALL* SCHOOLS HAVE A VERY GOOD IDEA THAT IF THEY PICK A
*BIG* SCHOOL JUDGE WHO HAS HEARD ALL OF THE *BIG* SCHOOLS DEBATE WEEK IN AND
WEEK OUT THAT THEY ARE NOT ON EQUAL GROUND AGAINST ONE OF THE *BIG* SCHOOL
TEAMS.
>>>>>>>>>>
Please speak for yourself. I would MUCH rather my *small* school teams be
judged by one of the *big* school judges than some of the random bullets
lurking around out there.
>>>>>>>>>>
WHY WOULD ANY REGIONAL SCHOOL PICK A JUDGE THAT TRAVELS THE NATIONAL CIRCUIT?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Because they had the national circuit judge at a regional tournament and
found them to be a fair critic.
I KNOW THAT TIM IS NOT REALLY THIS NAIVE...FAIRNESS OF THE CRITIC IS NOT THE
ISSUE WHEN "PICKING" JUDGES. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT A *SMALL* TEAM
THINKS THAT THEY HAVE A SHOT AT WINNING THAT JUDGE AGAINST A *BIG* SCHOOL,
>>>>>>>>>>
First, I question what Tony's definition of a "fair" critic is. To me, a fair
critic is one that will render a ballot based on what happens in the round .
If I believe a critic to be "fair", then that person (in my opinion) will
vote for us or against us as the debate dictates. If I believe that a critic
gives us a "shot" at getting the ballot from a *big* school, then that IS a
fair judge.
Second, I can't believe Tony is so cynical as to believe that people would
try to pick only "hacks" as their critics instead of "fair" judges. I can
assure him that I, for one, would not. I ONLY want judges who give us a fair
shot at the ballot. That's ALL I ask.
TIM MAHONEY SAID:
>>>>>>>>>>
If I were a debater at a small school reading this I would be insulted. It
seems to me you are saying that small schools getting
ready to debate big schools sit around praying that they get crappy judges
because there only hope of winning is if the judge screws up. I have a lot
more faith in debaters than that. Most debaters that I know from big schools
or small schools just want fair judges.
>>>>>>>>>>
Well, I can't say that I'm offended, but I agree with Tim. Speaking as the
coach at a *small* school, all my debaters and I have ever asked for is FAIR
judges. And while strikes are nice, they just aren't enough to eliminate the
randomness. In fact, I have found that the judges on the circuit are FAR less
inclined to vote on rep than many of their regional counterparts.
TONY HUNTER SAYS:
>>>>>>>>>>
AS A COACH AT A *SMALL* SCHOOL I AM INSULTED THAT YOU WOULD MAKE AN
ACCUSATION LIKE THIS, BUT AT LEAST IT SHOWS THAT THE REAL REASONS FOR PICK 20
ARE COMING THROUGH.
>>>>>>>>>>
I think it was you that were giving the *small* schools no credit for being
able to get the ballot from *big* school judges. I don't see where Tim has
done anything but give all schools the same credit.
BTW, what small school do you represent? Your affiliation at the bottom makes
no distinction as to which UC - CSU you are with.
>>>>>>>>>>
I HAVE BEEN ARGUING AGAINST A SYSTEM THAT I BELIEVE WOULD BE MORE UNFAIR THAN
RANDOM JUDGING.
>>>>>>>>>>
I think that what you are missing is the distinction between Tim's
understanding of "fair" and your own. To you, "fair" is that all teams should
have the same CHANCE to get a good or bad critic. To Tim, fair is that the
judge sitting in the back of the room will make a decision based on the
debate, and not their own personal life experiences (or even a coin flip).
Your saying that random judging is more "fair" is VERY different than saying
that teams deserve "fair" judging.
As for me and my teams, we would MUCH rather have "fair" critics in the back
of the room than have a "fair" chance at a random critic.
>>>>>>>>>>
I JUST DON'T GET IT...WHAT IS UNFAIR ABOUT RANDOM JUDGING...?
>>>>>>>>>>
What's "unfair" is that 2 teams have to be heard by EVERY random bullet in
the judging pool. While it's true that all teams have an equal chance of
getting that bad judge, it's still "unfair" to the teams that have to debate
in front of him/her.
Finally, I don't know if anyone has said anything yet, but in world of
E-mail, using all caps is considered SHOUTING.
We are one small (heavy emphasis on the word SMALL) school that would rather
pick X than chance a random bullet EVERY round.
Peace,
Bob Lechtreck
Bakersfield College
Archive created by Jonathan Stanton (jonathan@cs.jhu.edu)
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