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[Re: Re: respecting religion - educational post]
>From what I've read in this thread(s), it may be more important for many
of the Christians to be home, with family, on Easter, rather than in
2-hour masses per se. And as was stated, Mass will be available.
1) Lifestyle choice is a component of religious practice. Even if
Moslems or Hindus or whoever can logistically practice their religions
at a particular tournament (Christians also don't have any RULE for long
Easter mass -- & most mainstream Christian sects are, in my opinion,
more tolerant of religious practice deviations than many of the other
religions discussed by Benjamin and Troy), they have just as legit a
reason for WANTING to be home with family, on say, Sunday, or Friday, or
during Chanukkah...or for wanting to pray at a specific time, even if
their Doctrine is tolerant, BECAUSE an Acceptable Christian Mass will be
available at nats.
2) At what point does a choice to celebrate a holiday in a particular
manner become a religious matter? For example, I traditionally
celebrated Easter with my family, and the reunion was particularly
important for us (we were separated most the year by choice -- prep
school, college, summer trips). Yet 3 of 4 of us are agnostic atheists
(and the fourth is abstractly 'spiritual'). Could we claim a similar
discrimination? Isn't part of ANY religious practice merely lifestyle
choice? Most Christians I know -- and most non-Jews -- ritualistically
celebrate Christmas with their families, but few do beyond the typically
non-denominational and commercialized practice of exchanging presents
piled up beneath a dead tree. Could they claim their 'religious' freedom
to practice was discriminated against? Could those Catholics who choose
to attend a 4-hour x-mas mass claim additional discrimination over those
who choose to attend a shorter mass?
3) Are my non-religious values/traditions/'practices' less weighty than
religious-based ones (well legally, yes, but I think the discussion has
veered far from that angle)?
We cannot possibly accommodate every lifestyle choice.
Should we therefore take polls of all potential CEDA nats. participants
a year in advance so that we can use linear programming techniques to
somehow minimize inconveniences?
Benjamin R. Bates wrote:
> At 01:14 AM 3/2/97 -0600, Troy Cobourn wrote:
> >example number one if i am muslim i can not debate at any tournaments
> >because chances are good i well be in a round when prayer time comes the
> >question here is do i stop in the middle of my speech and say a prayer do i
> >use prep time to say a prayer do i try and convience the critic in the
> >room to hold off prep time because right now is my prayer time
> >this is more important than the argument about one tournament which by
> >default happens to be on easter sunday if i was a muslim could not debate
> >at all not a round my whole college years because of this it seems to me
> >that this is far more important then one tournament on one day
> Under my readings of the Quran and Hadith, this argument is simply wrong.
> Muslim belief calls for five regular periods of prayer. PRayer 1 is at
> sunrise, right after you get up for the day. Prayer 2 is during the middle
> of the day, completely self-scheduled. Prayer 3 is at midafternoon. Prayer
> four is during the setting period of the sun. And prayer 5 is right before
> one goes to bed. THere is no dictate of one must pray at 6, 12, 3, 6, and
> 9. ISlamic oprayer is flexible in the time that it can be performed.
> Also, Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, worshipped twice a day, one at
> sunrise and once at sunset. His practice was followed by the next three
> Caliphs and formed the model for Shi'ite Muslims. These branch of islam
> would be substantially free of the interference that you describe.
> Finally, the Qur'an dictates that if one is involved in a battle for God or
> for truth or for justice, prayer may be delayed until one finds respite from
> the fight. if we view debate as a battle of the minds to find truth, it is
> quite rpobable that this would be excepted as well. The qur'an then tells
> the beleiver to worhip as soon as possible (perhaps while waiting for the
> decision) and Allah will forgive.
> As such, a Muslim can debate at tournmanets. A muslim either needs to find
> 5 times a day to worship during tyhe tournamnet, or if she is Shi'ite 2
> times. She can worship between rounds (prayer can take as little as 5
> minutes, with full ritual) as long as she can do her full salat.
> >example two i am jew i can not go to any of the winter tournaments or for
> >the most part those in the latter half of december does this make these
> >tournaments dicriminatory under those upholding the belief that because nats
> >is held on easter sunday it is discriminatory the answere to that is
> >yes it is funny there are no tournaments on christmas but there are on
> Channukha was desinged as a working holiday. Unlike the Chrisitan orgy of
> mass prayer and sudden worship, Channukha is largely practiced at night in
> small groups of friends and/or family. Jewish shops and businesses reamin
> open throughout Channukha. Jews go to school during Channukha. Throughout
> history Channukha has been a working holiday wher one goes about her daily
> activities as usual and then worships at night. The week long celebration
> of lights is designed to make the working human's schedule compatible with
> their conception of Yahweh. As such, if a person can bring their menorah on
> the van and set it up in the hotel room and light it every evening in praise
> of Yahweh, no Jeish law has been broken and worship is fully and properly
> carried out.
> >example three hindu's (at least those honestly trying to achieve moksha
> >which for those of you who do not know what that is it is their heaven) they
> >can not debate and try to win why you ask because those trophies they win
> >will get in their way they are not supposed to go after anything which is
> >material they are only supposed to go after the spitual so the hindus would
> >not be able to debate at all
> This is also simply not true. The ancient Brahmin (the highest rpiest class
> of Hinduism) actually invented academic debate (in parallel with the Chinese
> and Greeks and romans and others). Debating was actually part of the
> original religious ceremonies where one brahmin would take one side of an
> unsettled issue and another would take the other side. THey would then
> debate in contest form to prove who was the wisest of the Brahmin. While
> prizes were awarded, the main goal of the ancient Brahmin was to achieve
> truth through the elimination of false ideas and thus balance and harmony.
> Modern debate, some argue, still does this. We can achieve spiritual
> satisfaction by arguing ideas and concepts in an attempt to find the truth.
> Devout Hindus realize that material benefits can get in the way of fidning
> spiritual goals, but they also relize that in attempting to achieve
> spiritual goals one can also accrue meterial benefits. It is only when
> material benefits ge tin the way of achieving spiritual bliss thaat they mau
> be rejected. The two are compatible.
> I hope that greater understanding has been achieved, and I still think that
> all discrimination is wrong and shouldbe rejected. It is just important to
> know and understand the issue involved before one can make a decision onf
> something as substantive as religious discrimination.
> Benjamin R. Bates
> University of Richmond
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