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Re:TO Terry West

I would say SDSS is running out of steam, but it appears there was no 
steam to begin with:

On 20 July, BOB ALEXANDER <964balexande@alpha.nlu.edu> wrote:

> 
> on 19 July 1997, west@centrum.cn.suu.edu wrote:
> "YOU'RE EITHER PART OF THE SOLUTION, OR YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM."
> 
> What part of our suggestions for improvement do you define as "part of the 
> problem"?  Furthermore, Why is our attempt at improvement "part of the problem"
> ,while you consider silencing our discourse not to be?

What attempt at improvement?  Criticize a system, then "create" an 
idea already being worked on within the system you've criticized?
And who tried to "silence your discourse"?  Not me.  I'm just 
pointing out that the SDSS has no clothes.  
> 
> west writes:
> "Narrower topics for novices: Neat new idea, huh? WRONG! This was proposed on
> the CEDA-L last year."
> 
> response:
> Sorry chief, I was among the working class this time last year.  Now that I'm
> back into school/debate, I'm striving to make it better...and you fault me
> for this?  

Yeah, since you criticize an organization unfairly (given that you 
admit you didn't even know what you were talking about since you've 
not been involved).  How are you striving to make debate better?  
Blast an organization unfairly?  Then do what it's doing?
> 
> west writes:
> "We have a committee which will be proposing more limited versions of the topic
> after it is selected, which doesn't occur until August 1.  WHERE HAVE THE SDSS
> PEOPLE BEEN??? It's a lot easier to sit around and whine about "the man" than
> it is to spend a great deal of our copious spare time ACTUALLY SOLVING PROBLEMS."
> response:
> Congrat's , sounds like you're on the right track.  I wasn't aware of this 
> committee; I think I represent the groups opinion when I say that we would love
> to engage in some productive discourse with this committee.

Well the discourse you've engaged so far hasn't been very productive. 
You are just granting me everything I've said to this point--you jump 
all over CEDA without even trying to find out whether you're right or 
wrong, and without an attempt at a constructive engagement before you 
fire the SDSS nukes.
 
> west writes:
> "Predictable case lists. CEDA people (particularly Josh Hoe) have been at the
> forefront of making this a reality for at least the last two years.  But 
> I tried to initiate discussion of other problems with this concept last spring
> to no avail."
> 
> response:
> Hey, sounds like your being defensive in fear that I'm trying to steal
> someones thunder; trust me that's not my intent.  I'm just trying to take
> positive ideas and expand upon them...is that wrong?
>

No, I just see some big time hypocrisy in criticizing a system for 
not doing something it's been doing, then doing it and claiming it as 
your own "revolutionary" idea.

> west writes;
> "My point: designated case lists are NOT going to solve "the problem" with 
> keeping novices in debate. They may be part of the solution, but until we get
> some pedagogy into our activity, it's still going to be "anything goes"--and
> only people who have mucho hs experience, multiple institutes, and lots of
> spare time are going to succeed toward the upper echelons of debate."
> 
> response:
> Never claimed that my proposals would "solve" everything.  In fact, in my 
> original post I said that they wouldn't.  But, as we both agree, they are a
> step in the right direction.
> 
> 
> Summary:
> It seams that we are in agreement on our general ideas and goals. 
> Overall, m
> any of the responses to our SSDS posts seem have this in common
> with you.
> We're a lot closer in our goals than many posts would suggest, but for some
> reason our movement is often being met with blind opposition. 
> Please consider our proposals with an open mind and with a goal of improving
> education and accessability, this is the mindset with which they are written.

Wait just a bloody minute.  YOU (SDSS) are the people who declared 
war (remember the "blow up CEDA" rhetoric?).  What a revolution--you 
fire the first shot, then scream for peace when someone fights back!  
"Blind opposition"???  Hardly a fair accusation toward me.  Seems 
like, since you admit you've been out of the activity and were 
TOTALLY UNAWARE that much of what you've been screaming for is 
already in process, that YOU are the one lacking in foresight.

When my pappy taught me how to use a gun, first thing he taught me 
was "see and know what you're shooting at before you start blasting 
away."  

But I accept your unconditional surrender.  Now participate in the 
ceda-l discussions when narrow versions of the topic start coming out 
after August 1.

Terry West
Southern Utah

> 
> 
> Bob Alexander,
> SSDS
> 
>
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