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Re: CEDA "culture"
despite being raged on by my supposed ceda collegues, i once again have to
wigh in supporting the illustirous monte. you see, we only got the chance
to debate once. apparently, it was in high school. however, i was too
pathetic busy drooling over sullivan and monte's swass three button suit
to remember. regardless of your ceda/ndt biases, there is a substantial
movement of us who fell like we got screwed over by the split and we
wholeheartedly support the merger, even if it involves a rough transition.
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, monte r johnson wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 DRTUNA@aol.com wrote:
> > Monte Stevens sez:
> First of all, while I am flattered with the mistake, I am only Monte
> Johnson, not the illustrious Monte Stevens...
> > "On Thu, 27 Feb 1997
> DRTUNA@aol.com wrote
> > > The CEDA culture is one of a larger community and of being a bit more open
> > as
> > > a result, perhaps, than NDT. Time and again I have heard people from NDT
> > > programs say "don't bring that out in public." What I want to know is, why
> > > not?
> > What does this mean? Cultured CEDA people are more "open" (with their
> > mouths?)? This is divisive and, frankly, asinine."
> > I am surprised that you are not aware of more than one meaning for a word, or
> > culture vs. cultured. The point I am making is that I have noticed that CEDA
> > folks are more likely to bring "rumors" out into the open to confirm or deny
> > them. I base this on reading all of the listservs since they began. Feel free
> > to disagree if your sample is different. It is not divisive. Understanding
> > differences helps us understand each other.
> If by "open" you only meant "more likely to bring out rumors" then I
> probably don't have the evidence to disagree. On face it doesn't make
> much sense, however. Why would NDT "folks" be any less likely to bring
> out rumors? Why would CEDA people be more? Hypothesis: CEDA started
> cross-examination when NDT didn't have it; CEDA people are thus more used
> to directly sharing their feelings with each other directly; If NDT had
> adopted cross-examination earlier, their "people" would be more likely to
> bring out rumors.
> But by "open" I detected, and still detect a bit more patting on
> the back for oneself and one's organization than the definition "bringing
> out rumors" would imply. Your contrast with NDT implies that it is
> "closed" which means a lot more than "not likely to bring out rumors."
> Monte continues: >
> > "> I salute Josh Hoe's commitment to openness in our activity.
> > Hey Tuna, let's try making the activity really "our" activity, i.e. to
> > include all debaters, and not just those of the culturally refined
> > acronyms. Whatever you mean by "open" applies to everyone now; whatever
> > "closed" might mean applies to the attendees of both the CEDA and NDT
> > Nationals. The attempt to make a distinct debate "culture" out of an
> > acronymic affiliation is separationist.."
> > Despite your desires, differences exist. We ignore them at our peril. "Open"
> > vs. "closed" applies to people, not acronyms.
> My point exactly. CEDA and NDT (even if you append "folk") do not refer
> to people (i.e. individuals), but to organizations which run national
> debate tournaments.
> Over and over again I and
> > others are told not to bring things up on the L but to let them lie. Why
> > don't you try dealing with that (whether we should or not) instead of
> > posturing. I do not understand how my affirmation of Hoe-ish openness is
> > refuted by your above comment.
> I'm not telling you to lie (obviously). But I might ask you to be more
> careful with your language. If you are refering to people who are open or
> closed, name them (otherwise you ironically exemplify the closedness
> which you pretend to condemn. If you mean "bring out rumors" say that,
> and not "open."
> > "FUCK CEDA, FUCK NDT: LONG LIVE DEBATE" >
> > Your crude language fails to hide your innocence in this matter. If you
> > believe that academic debate in America can prosper in the absence of
> > effective organizations then start running an anarchy counterplan. Please
> > support the argument that we don't need organizations. Where would topics
> > come from? Who would organize the two nationals tournaments? I bet you would
> > be the first to complain when they were poorly organized because they were
> > simply throw-together affairs.
> CEDA and NDT have been reified into "cultures"- which is what I object
> to. When NDT and CEDA debaters answered arguments by "go do [CEDA or NDT]
> debate, when coaches and institute teachers condemned the other activity
> (in recruiting, workshop instruction, etc.), when WE COULDN'T DEBATE
> AGAINST OUR COLLEGUES AND FRIENDS BECAUSE OF AN INANE ORGANIZATIONAL
> DISPUTE, WE EXISTED DISTINCT CEDA AND NDT "CULTURES". A few were able to
> transcend the difference (Weber, Emory, etc.). Most of us just got
> screwed. Cultural differentiation of CEDA and NDT was the source of the
> sickest divisiveness.
> > Send this message to someone else, Monte. I and others made the shared topic
> > possible. I spent months fighting for my constitution and bylaw revisions
> > which made it possible. I fought for it at business meetings while you were
> > cutting cards or fast asleep somewhere. As well, I have tried to show respect
> > and understanding for all formats of debate. Do you feel the same about parli
> > as policy in your exhortation for long life?
> Yes I do. That's why I have debated in that format both in the U.S. and
> throughout the U.K. Let's get the parli people in here and debate. Tuna,
> do you feel the same way about Parli (1. as you do about CEDA, 2. as you
> do about NDT)?
> > Sure, I am in favor of cooperation, crossover, and all the rest, but I will
> > not bow to a new god-myth that in order to do that I must remain silent and
> > blind to differences which I feel need to be discussed or addressed.
> Unfortunately, labeling CEDA more "open" and thus NDT more "closed" helps
> perpetuate differences. I am discussing and addressing it, you should be
> happy. THE MYTH IS THAT THERE IS SOME CULTURAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CEDA
> AND NDT. The reality is that, before the merger, a lot of us got fucked
> by this myth. And we aren't going back...
> > If you believe this, then I expect you to prove it by refusing to accept any
> > awards from these organizations that you wish to "fuck." I'll be watching.
> Neither organization is likely to give me any awards anytime soon. Unless
> CEDA nationals (which I will be at for the first time this year, but not
> the NDT) gives some kind of award for the best dressed judge...:-)
> > Tuna
> Nice talkin' to you Tuna, we should meet sometime!
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