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Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: "he" "he/she" "she/he" "s/he" "e" etc. WAS: female Nobel laureates]]

> Sorry, I should have said (thought it was implied): "No [sub]group has
> the [a priori] right [to impose its will] to...". Of course language
> changes, and of course it has changed when groups, very often
> politically motivated, set out to change it (note that no RIGHT is
> assumed in this sentence). But just because an imposed use of "he" may
> have been accepted by sheep, it doesn't mean that by the mere will of
> the elite, the language OUGHT to be changed. 

You are right.  You cannot be forced to change your language usage.  
That, however, does not mean that it ought not be changed.  If the impact 
of your langauge usage has a sexist impact, I would think that you would 
want to change.  If you opt not to change that is your perogative, but it 
is my perogative to fight against it.

Likewise, certainly the
> neo-Nazi skinheads of America do not have the [automatic, a priori]
> right to [impose] the self-defined term of "gods of decency" (to be
> distinguihed from the acceptable "Gods of Decency", or "G.O.D."), and
> expect they be generically called that by everyone. 

I find it troubling that you would choose to equate an attempt to change 
gender specific pronouns with neo-Nazism.  I think the two movements are 
considerably different.   

 In other words,
> language for all shouldn't automatically change just because a subset of
> women want it to. They can certainly try (and have arguably made great
> head-way) to convince that standards ought to be changed, but this is
> not the same as claiming a 'right to impose will'. 

Umm, last time I checked it was more than just a subset of women who 
wanted the langauge changed.  If you pay attention to the postings on the 
L, most of the authors are male.  By the way, I don't think anyone argued 
for the right to impose will.  We are just trying to convince people that 
the standards ought to be changed.  
 
Agghhh, you say,
> "Hasn't our culture imposed its will upon women by adopting 'he' as
> gender-neutral?". Problably, and one doesn't have to use 'he' in that
> way if one is offended. My prob is with the EXTENSION of that value to
> everyone else. Remember, this thread started by the side-tracking
> complaint [imposition of will] over the use of 'he', referring to
> individual Nobel laureates -- arguably it wasn't even meant to be
> gender-neutral!

People have the right to fight against the things that they find 
offensive.  They have just as much right to do that as someone has the 
right to use gendered pronouns.  Don't claim right for one side that you 
are unwilling to give to the other.

Jan
References:
Archive created by Jonathan Stanton (jonathan@cs.jhu.edu)
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