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**!! Bear and Ethics (or lack of) On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Bear replied to my post, in it he made some

   Bear, responding to J. Honiball, wrote:

>really irrelevant to the discussion, but negative racism is 
exemplified
>by racistly demeaning rhetoric. Positive racism would be a form of
>racism, like Aff. Action, that is implemented for the purposes of
>correcting past patterns of racism.

   I, Rick Miller, wrote:
>>Bear:
>>1. "racistly" is not a word.  (-:

Bear responded:
>No, but I bet you can figure out what it means. But, maybe not.
>Don't you question whether racism even still exists?

   Your advocacy of "Positive racism" (as you called it) indicates
to me that racism is still very much alive.

>Maybe I'm wromg (sic), but weren't you taking the position, last
>summer, that allowing minorities to use narratives to express 
themselves
>is a form of reverse racism which you so vehemently oppose?

   Bear, you are wrong again. My opposition was to your advocacy
that *ONLY* minorities should be allowed to use narratives, because
(as you claimed), Whites do not have a history of story telling. I 
feel
your conclusion is based on a faulty premise; European-Americans
have a rich history of story telling and Classical Literature: 
attend
a play, get a library card, these examples are not hard to find. 
Actions
taken to *DISALLOW* European-Americans from utilizing the narrative
in a legal setting (which you supported) ARE RACIST.
   I feel narratives are a wonderful way to express ideas and 
opinions,
and should not be excluded from any one culture because Bear so
desires.


>Rick, I really don't want to turn this into a free-for all, but I 
have to
>let you know that I'm beginning to worry about some of your 
>"White backlash" attitudes. I'm sure you have some conservative 
allies
>that will bombard me with multiple-subpointed responses until next 
month,
>but I disagree with you.

   Bear, asking for equality with narratives is "White backlash"?
Equality seems logical and sound to me, even reasonable. I'm starting 

to worry about your "Non-liberating" dogma. You seem to have 
entrenched
an oppresively racist mindset that disallows you to see any good 
qualities
that Euro-Americans have to offer.
   Bear, one doesn't have to be a conservative to see the error in 
your
argumentation, one only has to appreciate logic and its application
in argumentation. You have committed the fallacy of false 
alternatives.
By the way, I'm a libertarian, not a conservative.

  -My (RickM)  original post continued:

>>2. There is no logical justification for your support of "Positive 
racism"
>>(Aff. Action). Improper behavior (racism/discrimination) by those
>>in the past does not constitute a justification for racism (Aff. 
Action) now.
>>Your argument is uncogent, as it commits the "Tu quoque" fallacy
>>( "You too", "2 wrongs make a right"). To argue that "Positive 
racism"
>>corrects "past patterns of racism" is misleading; to continue any
>>institutionalized form of racism (such as Aff. Action) is to 
perpetuate
>>the entrenchment of a bad mindset, as it gives racism "legal 
>>respectability". Bear, "Positive racism" would seem to be 
>>an oxyMORON.


Bear responded:
>Rick, so only your opinion counts?

   Bear, Equality, Justice, and Logic count. I have yet to read any
of these in your post. I haven't resorted to "straw person" arguments.



>Rick, would the elimination of affirmative action make you happy
>even if it results in thousands, maybe millions of minorities being 
denied
>the opportunity for employment or job advancement?

   Bear, a meritocratic society, which would enable people of ALL
cultures in American society to compete on a level playing field,
as race would not be a disadvantage, nor an advantage, that society
would make me happy. Your scenario is not logical, we will not slide 

down the "slippery slope" (another fallacy) to an evil abyss of mass
job displacement. Minority owned businesses are significantly on the
rise, Aff. Action had nothing to do with this, but rather hard work, 
and
keen foresight. Bear, using your same scenario, would the denial  of
thousands, maybe millions of jobs to Euro-Americans make you happy?


>I'ved (sic) spent a significant portion of my life living in 
Kentucky
>and Georgia and I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that, that
>many white employers would simply not hire blacks or women,
>particularly if they were not forced to fill quotas by the federal 
gov't


   Bear, and many Euro-Americans are denied job advancements, 
and scholarships- that doesn't make either right. Recently the Los
Angeles Fire Dept., during their hiring period, announced that no 
Euro-Americans would be hired. Justice? Equality? NO. We should
not discriminate because of past wrongs (Tu quoque fallacy), it's 
illogical.


>Maybe you haven't lived in a racist society (We all know how 
advanced
>California is...)

   Bear, can you say "The O.J. Simpson jury"? California,
unfortunately, is plagued by racists from ALL sides.


>Both my dad and grandfather were Klansmen,Rick. I've seen
>blacks beaten for simply asking for a job application. Maybe
>that reality doesn't disturb you, but I wonder how'd you feel
>if your skin was a few shades darker...

   Bear, those were both sad situations, we have had similiar 
situations
here in Los Angeles with Danny Bakewell from the Brotherhood Crusade.

They attacked workers and owners of construction sites for
 hiring Asian, Mexican, and White workers. It was broadcast on 
Nightline.
    The events you described, while tragic, do not justify these 
similiar
situations to be perpetuated upon someone else simply because of 
their
heritage, Your taking out your own argument.


>I've tolerated your defense of racial neutrality for quite some time,

>Rick. My fear is that you are sounding more and more like 
>neutrality is a cover for Aryan backlash. 

   Bear, I had hoped that as one who teaches argumentation you would
have responded to my arguments and not resort to personal attacks 
(ad hominem abusive). Your inference is quite clear, and slanderous,
I question your ethics in doing so. How does one asking for equality
equate to an Aryan backlash? Your premise does not support your
conclusion, and I WOULD HOPETHAT YOU WOULD APOLOGIZE!!!


>I'm afraid that we will never agree, and if you are unable to 
>bring your level of argumentation above the point of calling
>me uncogent and moronic, than I don't really desire to continue
>our ongoing dialogue.


   Bear, 1. I never called you uncogent, but rather your arguments.
       
            2. I never called you moronic, I said "Positive racism" 
is
                an oxyMORON. Please don't take me out of context, I 
suggest you
                re-read the post.

  Waiting for an apology!
Rick
Archive created by Jonathan Stanton (jonathan@cs.jhu.edu)
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